In this episode, I talk to Michael Feathers. Michael is the author of the super-popular book “working effectively with legacy code”. He is also the founder and director of R7K Research and Conveyance, a company that helps engineering teams with their software and organization design. Recently, Michael also joined Globant as Chief Architect.
We talk about:
- legacy code and how to deal with it
- how systems almost feel like living organisms
- how we are on a journey with our code, and why it’s so important to care for it,
- how legacy code is the result of an organization where engineers turn faster (leave the company/team) than the code churns.
Today’s episode is sponsored by Botany.io – Botany is a virtual coach for software engineers that unblocks essential teamwork and levels up careers!
Transcript: Legacy code is a living organism – With Michael Feathers
Michaela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Software Engineering Unlocked podcast. I’m your host, Dr. McKayla and today I have the pleasure to talk to Michael Feathers.
Michael is the author of the super popular book “working effectively with legacy code”. He’s also the founder and director of
7K Research & conveyance, a company that helps engineering teams with the software on organization design.
Recently, Michael joined Global as a chief architect. Since I have been at university reading his amazing book, I always wanted to pick his brain. So I’m super excited to have Michael here with me today. Michael, welcome to the show.
Michael Feathers: So glad to be here.
Michaela: Yeah, it’s my pleasure. I’m really, really excited. Michael, you have been probably working more than 20 years with engineers, with software companies from all over the world. This is so, so fascinating to me. I’m super curious about how different organizations develop software. I’m always asking the questions. What makes teams and organization more effective than others? What’s up engineering practices. Do we have, I’m a big fan of code reviews. And so I want to know from your experience, are there best practices? Can you make out best practices that really lead to success for engineering teams where you say, well, if they follow that, right, they will be very successful versus factors that you think they are definitely bad and lead to a lot of troubles.
Michael Feathers:[00:01:23] The question. And it’s interesting too, because like the practice space is very interesting, but I think a lot of it really comes down to organizational culture, you know? And it’s, you know, if you have a good culture, then basically like the practices will develop almost invariably, right. Or you’ll at least be open to going in and exploring different practices and things along those lines. I think, you know, for the thing that I have gotten called into organizations for quite often, you know, legacy code, the thing I kind of noticed over and over again is that. What is missing sometimes is really a very Frank conversation about the quality of the stuff that people are working on. Right. And in the worst cases, it’s kind of like a. It’s like everybody is told, you know, you must write code and you must design this thing and create it, but nobody’s really paying attention to it. And sort of like, you know, thinking about it as being significant, you know, quite often there’s like a task focus rather than focusing on the quality of the thing that you’re producing, that kind of thing. So I, you know, I wouldn’t really know how to go and actually sort of say, what are the best practices? I think that so many of the things that we basically do. In the industry now regarding testing and pairing and mobbing and you know, the way that we allocate work and stuff like that, a lot of those things really kind of help. So.
Michaela:: [00:02:38] Yeah. So one thing that I thought about is engineering values versus practices, right? So I think that engineering values and developing dos is a team. And not a lot of people are talking about it. Unfortunately I think much more people should talk about values. The engineering values that we have. And not the practices because practices can change and they should change. Right. They should change over time. And with technology changes and with our, how our society changes, the practices should change and somebody comes out and has a new idea. Right. And th they try something, they fail maybe 10 times, and then suddenly they found a new thing. . But the values, I think, for example, what about our. Code health. Right? I wanted the quality of the code that we are expecting how we are developing software, how we are talking about the things I think those values are really important. Is that something that you have more and more teams do or, you know, successful teams do.
Michael Feathers:[00:03:28] Yeah, definitely. I think it’s yeah, it’s a lot of, it really comes down to taking the work seriously. I think, you know, in a way, and in terms of values, it’s, it’s, it’s funny with this too, because you know, there are many different, like, you know May different ways. We can look at, you know, values across organizations and different frames we can use. But I think that actually going and seeing the systems themselves as valuable is like a rather important thing to do as well. Right. And that’s a little piece that tends to be missing at times. One things that’s kind of been striking to me across. You know, my career is basically noticing that in the very beginning back in the 1990s, it seemed like there was this thing of kind of like, well, we’re all kind of like disposable and as engineers, you’re just basically there just to do the work and then basically go home or go bowling or whatever it is you want to do in the evenings. Right. So going and recognizing that we can become more whole people at work and basically valuing our own development and valuing our communication, our relations with our coworkers. And I think that’s a great thing, but then there’s also this other thing too, of like valuing the thing that we do and looking at the things that we create as being significant and having their own intrinsic qualities that we can kind of like, you know pay attention to and kind of foster over time. So yeah, I think one of the things I’ve been coming back to over and over again within my career is just this notion of thinking about the systems that we create as if they were like alive in a way. Right. And we get to care about them. Right. And it’s kind of like this way of going, like applying like this anthropomorphic frame to the things that we’re working with. And some people might say, well, that isn’t like a it isn’t like a good thing or it isn’t a realistic thing, but I find it very useful to come and sort of think of them. Think of the systems we work of is basically things that we can foster and care for. You know, I think that helps us become better engineers.
Michaela:: [00:05:17] When I was preparing for this interview, I read through the things that you write on your website on the RS seven K website. And this is something that I read. I was really fascinated by it. Like. That the code is in living organism. Right. Sort of, and, and I thought, well, this, this is true. Right. It evolves, it changes. People come in and the levels are their think of Prince there. Right? So coded I right. Looks probably quite different than code that you write. And even if you have engineering values around that, and even if you have coding standards, you probably can tell, you know, sometimes the boundaries of this is where one engineering team or engineer work. Then this is where another engineering team works. And you also talked about your, how actually Cultures and the organizational structure shape our code, which is one of those laws that we have been seeing and studying for for many years. Right. Where we see that actually. Yeah, exactly. Right. But you see that you have the organization and the boundaries and how you structure and the design, your organization will reflect in the architecture of the system, which also shows that somehow it’s, it’s living with the organization and growing and, you know, Aging and getting to a legacy when the, also the structures of the organization change. And it probably it’s even harder to change the code per se, when you’re changing the organization. Right. So people change organizations all the time. They’re reorgs in large organization. They’re reorgs all the time, but we’re not reordering the code in the same capacity. . So what is your thought on that, especially about technical debt, for example, Then he called that, that cumulates over time. How should we deal with that? And how should we integrate that in our day to day work life?
Michael Feathers:[00:07:01] The, the main thing I keep coming back to us, like the frame. For this, you know, it’s kind of funny. We can talk about this being like a metaphor that basically code is like biology, but I think just about anything that kind of grows incrementally, where it’s easier to add new things than to change existing things tends to go and sort of have like these hallmarks of organic growth in a way. Right? Like I used to say to people, like, if you, if there’s like a young tree and you kind of like kick it and it kind of like falls over a little bit, it’s kind of like, it’s not going to upright itself. It’s going to basically continue to grow. You know, upward, but from the direction you kicked it out. Right. And in much the same way that kind of thing happens with our code is that the things that we do tend to basically leave their Mark upon the structure of the code. Sometimes in complexity theory, this is called path dependence. It’s kind of like that basically. You’re dealing with something that has a memory and basically what’s possible with it depends upon what happened previously. Right. So I think that the main thing is to kind of like, just sort of like recognize this, recognize that that this is part of the character of, of code itself and that we don’t really ever get to go and sort of like say I’m going to build a brand new system. Like the complete rewrite, that’s going to go and be shiny and, and perfect. You know, that’s going to go and serve. I solve all of our problems that, you know, the, the code that we create, basically we’re on a journey with it and it’s going to basically take time for it to go and react to the new situations in this environment. And those new situations are how our organization is structured. What new features we need within the system. And it’s just going to be like this slow process of change. I think the interesting thing with this in terms of practicality is that. It does mean that sometimes it’s easier to go and create new systems than to go and sort of modify existing ones. And we should be a bit more proactive about doing that. Sometimes we’re basically like you know, if we have particular products and an organization think about creating new products sometimes rather than trying to burden existing products with new features that may not quite fit for instance. So, you know, that’s. It’s a rather abstract answer. I’m sorry, but it’s kind of like, you know, I think that basically this frame that we have of looking at software in this way can help us make some of these decisions a bit better, but they don’t like sort of solve all the problems necessarily in there.
Michaela:: [00:09:21] I heard you say a couple of things, especially before where you said, well, we have to take the quality of the system more seriously. We, you know, we have to be more careful. In my experience. I see, I see several camps, right? So there are the, really the, the engineers that, you know, they love high quality code. They, they learned a lot about how to create high quality code and they really do and nurture the systems quite a bit. Then you have like some tension between business goals here because as long as it works right, and it fits the business goal, there’s like this tension and this, this pull towards, well it’s good enough. Let it. Be please don’t make it nicer or more elegant and more inspiring. Just let it work. And then you have also very pragmatic developers that are maybe, you know, they’re not, they’re not into elegant code so much. I haven’t seen many of those, but they are. And I think a lot of more people become, especially like people that are creating software because they want to create something, right. They want to do products. So we have like a new wave of engineers. I think, especially when I studied a lot of people studied really for software engineering, but they were not entrepreneurs. Are, are only a couple of them were right. And now I see there’s like a huge mass of people that are also. Engineers, because they want to be entrepreneurs. They want to create products. And I think they’re coming a little bit with a different mindset into the whole you know, why are we using code and using code and code is just a means to an end, whereby I don’t know when, when I was in university, it was not a means to an end. It was the end, right? Like, this is why we are here. This is, it was not, it was a product focused. I had not. Lecture about product. I had only lectures about code and what is good code and what are good, you know development practices. And I also studied computer science. So a lot of computer and computer systems and system architecture and so on. But no product, right there was not all, how do we position that product or what makes a good product, not even product management, which probably should be there with it anyway. So I’m saying. I think there are more people now with a more pragmatic view on software than maybe 10 years ago. That’s at least my experience. So how do we balance that? And is that a good thing? You know, is it a bad thing? Can we even say, you know, it’s good or bad? Is it binary?
Michael Feathers:[00:11:46] Yeah, we can, we can basically have like a very instrumental view of code and systems and say they’re there. To serve us. Right. And that’s a frame, which like you say, can basically help you out if you’re an entrepreneur. And you’re just trying to get something to market very quickly. But you know, it’s a story which is, you know, just, you know, an age old story that essentially it’s like people get to market and then they discover they can’t change anything because they’ve created such a brutal system that it’s impossible to work with. So you’re always going to have like a mix of people they’re pragmatic and people that are idealistic, I guess, the. The important thing culturally is getting them to be able to talk to each other and see each other’s point of view and recognize that sometimes you have to be in it for the long haul and you have to be able to make trade-offs that sometimes it’s good to be opportunistic and do something very quick and dirty and disposable. And other times you want to go in like really invest in a particular thing, because it’s important to you. One thing that is weird about this is that I think. If we look at code as being just this mechanical thing or this thing, which is like over there someplace, or the thing that we mess with, you know, when in between our business conversations, which are really more important, you know, then we we aren’t paying attention to it enough. To basically understand when it can get in our way sometimes. There’s a guy I know Colin Brecht who basically started doing this thing called quality views. So it’s an idea that I had years ago and he was doing this within his organization and it’s a really, really cool tool for going in, dealing with technical debt. And I really want, that’s a great thing to go and talk about. It seems like with technical debt, we always go and we ask like the business side for like, Time to go and like go back and fix things. Right. And it’s kind of like, that’s always like a tough sell and it’s also kind of like people say, what am I going to get for that? Right. But the technique around this is to go and say, let’s take a look at our systems. And kind of like make a little pictorial representation of that. Maybe like if you have a big system, maybe it’s like five boxes of things, right. And then when we’re discussing the features, we want to add to the system, we can go and say, okay, well this particular feature touches these three boxes and this other one touches these two boxes. And what you do is you put colors on these boxes to indicate their level of health. Okay. And what happens is that color gradation is going to change over time. Right. And you just basically don’t use that as a basis for conversation with the people who aren’t looking at the code all day. Right. And the neat thing about this is that without talking about technical debt at all, it starts to become like this feeling within the system, within the organization that, you know, the code is a real thing and it has a particular qualities. And those things can either help us or get in the way, depending on how healthy it happens to be. Right. So it’s not uncommon to go and do this and have somebody go and say, gee, you know, this one area of the system is very red and it seems like every time we ask for features to touch this area, you know, it’s going to take a long time. Can we do anything about that? And then you actually have the business going and asking for system’s health. . Whereas before it would be completely invisible to them. . So I think that stuff like this is kind of like the path forward in a way is to basically sort of make. The systems are real to people within an organization. And, you know, sometimes the choice is going to be to do something very pragmatic that might actually go and sort of hurt things for a period of time temporarily. And you might just need to do that for the business, but you’ll at least understand what the consequences are of longer term.
Michaela:: [00:15:07] Yeah. I liked that. I liked that idea a lot, because if you think about a business and it has a building and it is in the building, like, and the building just rots right. Buildings wrong. Right. So they. They get older. The forsake is not nice anymore. The entrance is maybe not nice the floor, right. Ceiling and so on, but people it’s very visible to people and you think like, well, it’s good enough still it’s good enough. But there comes a point where you think, well, we cannot have this entrance. It’s still functioning. Right. It opens the door, but it makes them noise. Right. And it looks horrible. So you don’t want to Valcom your, your people there and, you know, At one point, there is no, you know, no way back to repair it, right? So then you have a big disaster, but this is very visible. So I liked this idea that you actually, you show it, you help people imagine what actually the system looks like, right? So there’s some visibility and transparency in it, which I think is very often missing. And I think that this, this missing visibility and transparency is also something that makes our, our lives so hard as engineers. Right? We are in front of the computer.
Michael Feathers:[00:16:10] It’s completely invisible to people. Right. All they see is people looking at monitors and it’s like, who, you know, they look at us looking at monitors and they’re like, Oh, what are these people looking at? Right. So it’s rough.
Michaela:: [00:16:20] And, and you also, you don’t see, the work and the quality of the work. Right. Do you see a button and one engineer can create a button and another engineer can create a button, but you don’t see what’s behind it. You know, like how is the backend integrated? Is that button actually really usable for another button? The CSS come, you know, from a class or is it just. Do you know, hand drawn into in, in lane style or something, right.
Michael Feathers:[00:16:41] I think it’s almost it’s beyond metaphor in a way, is that I think it really is true that software’s physical in a way, you know, it really is. Now, when you think about object orientation, it’s like objects are meant to represent things or to basically be things that, you know, have cohesion and coupling and can communicate with other things. You know, all of these things live in this virtual space, but it’s like they still. Obey some laws of physics in a way it’s kind of like modularity is like when something grows too big to basically fit in our heads, we basically want to keep it smaller. Right? So you can see that as being just like objects in the world. Some things are just ungraspable because they’re so huge and software can be like that too. So we want to go and keep it smaller like that. So I think, you know, we can use the real world as like a decent, you know, framing device for going and understanding these things and helping us make better decisions.
Michaela:: [00:17:32] Yeah. So I’m interviewing and talking to a lot of people right now, engineers, and I’m talking a lot about, you know, their values and also the code based health and what makes them happy, what makes them productive. And one thing that I hear over and over, and again, is that. You know, you have your engineering heart, right. So good code, good quality makes you happy. That’s definitely something that I see for, for many, many people, not everybody, but a lot of engineers, but then you have all these system constraints and now the system is an organization, right? So you also have, you have to fulfill. Your duties, you have to do what you’re supposed to do, and knowing that you’re doing what you’re supposed to do, it makes you also happy. It makes you more excited. Right? So if you know that you’re actually working on something that you’re not supposed to work on, it makes you unhappy. And, and it’s also risky to take on the task, right? So there’s this, there’s this productivity then there’s this code health and they’re all some how intertwined. Right? So people want to work on, for example, technical death is something that people, a lot of engineers would say. Well, it’s a challenging problem. I like to tinker with Dakota, like to make it nicer. I like to make it more, you know, reusable, more maintainable and so on. But on the other hand, there is business constraints and business needs. And my manager, you know regards me, or also evaluates me based on the features that I’m delivering. So I actually cannot take on. Technical debt. And very often I hear also people talk about the commitment is too big, right? So it’s not only that it’s a single engineer that cannot take on the technical debt. Even the team mission is not aligned with, you know, getting rid of technical SRE. They will work a little bit on technical debt a little bit here, but then the. They’re getting more, accumulating, more technical that overall. So they are actually not, you know, they don’t feel that they can really do a big thing. And I think you probably people will call you when there is like, when you have a problem. Right. So it’s too far. So how are you going to change the mindset? How you’re going to work with the people?
Michael Feathers:[00:19:32] People usually call me once they recognize that they actually have a problem, you know?
Michaela:: [00:19:36] Yeah, it’s very late, right?
Michael Feathers:[00:19:37] And I think that’s the bigger thing too, is just as developers, when we’re working in an organization, it’s a bit of work to go and actually go and convince people that actually some investments in going reducing technical debt gives you a payoff. Right. I think the most important thing to go and recognize this, that like there’s almost like this 80 20 rule that basically goes and happens with code change. And I, you know, I haven’t really seen research around this, but it seems to ring true. Maybe you have, I know you have a. We have a research background, but it seems like there are hot spots in code systems where basically there a lot of change tends to gravitate towards them. They can shift over time. Right. So the thing is, it’s kind of like as a developer, if you’re going and looking at something that’s pretty messy and then you look back and you basically see that that area had like, Thousands of commits made against it. One thing is you can pretty much count on us, any little thing that you do to go and make things better. There is probably going to go and give you a bit of a payoff, you know, going forward because of the fact that it’s a hot area of the system that goes and gets a lot of change, right. And I’m getting, you know, in the organization, just, you know, we should never look at technical debt as being like this thing, which is a uniform across an entire code base. I mean, it is in a way, but it’s like in terms of the value of technical debt, It’s wildly different in different areas of the code. Some areas are more mission critical in your code base than others are. And if you can at least have different say, rules of engagement for the system and go and say, you know, we know we don’t have very much time, but you know what, whenever we touch this particular part of the system, we’re going to be really careful about this. And we removed. Technical debt because we know that it’s critical for our business and we’ve changed it a lot. Just getting simple agreements about that, going forward, give you almost like a bit of a foot in the door in your organization to go and have this conversations about how quality impacts things. So yeah, it’s never like this thing of like, Hey, let’s go install technical debt. It’s more like let’s find out where it really pays off and then go and use that as a way of going in sort of like surfacing the conversation and doing something about it. Cause that’s gonna be a smaller investment.
Michaela:: [00:21:36] Yeah, hotspots is definitely something that we saw in many different empirical studies as well. Right. So that problems accumulate in different areas more than others. And there’s clusters that around that and so on. So it is definitely. Rings true for me from, from this perspective as well. And I like what you said, well, technical debt, you don’t have to work on every technical debt unit code base. Right? Some of that, it doesn’t even interest you because you’re not touching it. The system runs, there’s not, I think a lot of much it backs you has to do with how often you’re changing the parts, that there is a lot of technical debt, right. So if you’re not changing the parts who cares, right. Probably I don’t
Michael Feathers:[00:22:17] And, and really, I think, I think that’s one of the things I like in my book. I talked about this a bit in terms of writing tests, like going and breaking dependencies and writing tests for particular areas of the system is that because there’s this kind of like power lodge, predo distribution of code change that if you take the time to break dependencies around a huge class and write tests for it, chances are, you know, you’re going to come back to that relatively soon and basically go ahead and discover that that work has already that hard work has been done. And you’re going to be able to take the benefit of that work. Right. So it’s kind of like, it’s, it’s weird because like that power Lalish growth goes and leads to some chaos and systems, but it would also helps us in terms of going and sort of focusing our, when we focus our energy, we get payback for it also. So it’s like a place where we get a virtuous cycle that goes into Alliance with the psychotic cost of the problem, you know, so we can sort of. Leverage it to go and solve the problem as well. Like, I’m not sure I can put words better yet, but.
Michaela:: [00:23:15] No, it sounds, it sounds good. Yeah. . So you were talking about testing and in your book, and this was also a good question and it was actually asked on Twitter, right? And your book, there was this really strong connection with legacy code and the. Lack of tests, for example, because if you don’t have tests, tests, somehow are also a means to an end. Right? Did they give you confidence that when you are making changes, the system is still very similar to what work, what it was before, right? So you’re not introducing anything. Box, hopefully. Right. And so the better, the better the test, the better your confidence. And so you’re, you’re actually able to do changes without any tests you don’t know, like, are you messing up completely here or, you know, are you introducing a lot of side-effects and so on? Is that still in definition that holds true for you today? Or would you say that over time, the definition of, you know, what legacy code is changed for you?
Michael Feathers:[00:24:09] Well, I think any definition like this. And instrumental. I was actually the time I came up with us working with a team and I sort of just got angry and I said, you know, people, weren’t writing tests. I’m kind of like, you know, it’s kind of like, you know, this is legacy code because it’s code without tests. And I started ranting a little bit right in front of mine, says, you know, you should write that down. I’m like, okay. So I did. But the, the reason why I really was trying to press that point is because it was like really obvious to me through my experience at that time that. There’s a real strong, qualitative difference between code that has test coverage and code that doesn’t in the sense that if you don’t have test coverage, quite often, you’re scared of making changes and you can be much more conservative about how you, you know, do things you may not refactor as much. And you know, just, you, you have like a, a greater sense of ease working in code that has decent cusp test coverage. And I thought that qualitative difference is just so high. That’s worth going in highlighting that and basically going and tying that into a definition of legacy code. But then, you know, there’s the thing of kind of like there’s many different definitions of what legacy code is, and, and they’re all useful to some degree and that’s fine, but you know, I think for people that need to hear it, that’s the one I still use just because it’s, you know it helps people go and it’s, it’s a definition which kind of points to the solution, which I think is useful for us. If we’re trying to go and galvanize attention towards better practice.
Michaela:: [00:25:32] So on your head you also wrote. What we call legacy code is exactly what you would expect when developers turn over his I fast error, dent code turnover. Right. So for me to seems very much it, legacy code has to do with the loss of the knowledge about the code base. Right? So if you’re, and this sometimes has to do with the technology as well. Right? So if you think about systems, you know, written in some languages, Well, we just have really only a few people that are still familiar with this code it’s legacy code, right. Or if you’re having a code base and people leave, even it’s written in reacted, she’s now, you know, modern and that everybody knows it. People don’t have knowledge about the code base. So it’s legacy code. Is that something that you think also rings true for you?
Michael Feathers:[00:26:18] You know, I kind of like somebody offered that as like a an alternative definition is that, you know, legacy code is the product of, you know, it’s when your team turns over faster than your code turns over. Right. That kind of thing. And I think it’s important to go and basically see that system dynamic because it really affects. A lot of the decisions we make about process and team structure and all these things going forward within our organizations. I remember, I try to remember which tool this was. So I won’t mention the name because I’ll probably get it wrong, but there was like a tool that’s widespreadly used within the industry of database technology. And my understanding is it’s actually done only by two or three people. And they’ve been working on it for decades and it’s kind of like their life work is basically going to supporting this particular piece of software. Right. And to me, that’s almost like the ultimate fantasy in a way. It’s like, Oh, you know, have this house that you live in, that you basically sort of like remodel, continuously accepted this code. And then basically, you know, it so intimately that you’re. In this space where basically it’s never really legacy to you because you’re constantly able to go and improve it and add to it and stuff along those lines. Right. And it should never be something which is too big, where it’s too big, then, you know, It’s so big that a couple people can’t work on it together, you know, that you need an entire team. But it’s interesting without to go notice that that’s almost like an idealistic situation of having something that’s durational, the people are going to be with it. Long-term, it’s relatively small and you can basically do a lot of really great practice with it. But the thing is, it’s kind of like in. The typical development that happens to these days that never really quite happens. The software tends to grow up, grow bigger than us bigger than what will fit in like two people’s heads, for instance. Right. And beyond that people will basically leave and go to other jobs and other people will come in and stuff like that. And it’s these things that happen, which go in, tend to go in. Cause you know, the, these issues that we tend to have, and then we have to go and introduce practices like, you know, extensive testing. You want to make sure that we can. Detect when something goes wrong in this thing that we don’t quite understand when we make changes to it. Right? All these things are almost like props that we use to go and basically deal with this fundamental mismatch between the lifetime of the team, the lifetime of the code. And I think it’s kind of a fascinating thing to go and recognize that those tensions are inherent in what we do. And it’s not that we’re bad programmers. We’re just dealing with a pretty hard problem that we have this, this lack of alignment between team and, you know, piece of code that we’re working on.
Michaela:: [00:28:44] Yeah, exactly. And I think it has also to do with, I mean, there are so many factors that influence that. So for example, in our industry, people that are, you know, five year in one company, this is like, Five years. How could you say that long? Right. Like people are turning over really quickly also for various reasons. Very often also because they want to level up. And because there is, or yeah, because there is a lot of opportunity out there, right. So people can choose, pick and choose, be quite choosy. But on the other hand, as you said, well, people are leaving and they’re with them. A lot of knowledge is leaving, which I think sometimes organizations still don’t recognize the value of the, just the knowledge that people have in their head that they accumulate. Right. Because, and we see that and you know, that I’m a big fan of code reviews, for example. And I did a lot of research on cultural reason. What we see for example is that. The person who has seen fight at least once this is the big zero to one, right. Has seen the file, the, the code that you’re asking them to review, at least once, then it will give much better feedback than before. Right? So if you look for example, usefulness of feedback, and so how many of the code review comments are useful? We see that if they haven’t seen the file before the code, before the code base, before this part of the code base, before they give around three. Out of 10 useful code comments, right? So only 30% of their comments is really useful to the author. But if they have seen it, at least once it, grows from 30 to 70%. Right. So this is a big jump, but then you only see incrementally, like until five times, then it doesn’t matter anymore. Right. So if a person has seen the code five times, then it’s plateauing the usefulness of the comments that they are giving. Right. So, but culturally is in general. I think it’s a really, it’s a good practice if it’s done right. To help that more people are familiar with the code. So for example, if you have at least two people or three people that have seen the code base, or know a little bit of what’s going on there, they don’t have to be in a, like the author of it. But I think they are quite intimate, familiar with the code base because of the cultural reason we see that. Knowledge really increases that we can measure, even at the knowledge of the code base increases for teams that are doing code reviews versus with teams that are not doing code reviews. How is your experience with that? Is that something that you recommend that you recognize as important and so on?
Michael Feathers:[00:31:08] Yeah, no, I think it is. And it’s, it’s funny with this too, because I kind of come, you know, at least I’m gonna become a consultant. I really got embedded, like in the extreme programming and agile communities. And so we had like pair programming in the very beginning and we would basically use that as like a. A way of going and trying to go and arrive at like continuous code review. And then more recently you have mob programming and ensemble programming as well. And it’s kind of weird about this because it feels wrong in a way to go and have five people working on the same piece of code at once, right. In a group. But I can’t. You know, the more I reasoned about it from first principles, I think it’s actually a pretty decent thing to do, right? If knowledge loss is one of the main things we we deal with over time within an organization and basically making sure that everybody’s involved in the decisions and those, the code intimately, it’s probably a decent investment for an organization to make. It’s a hard sell. I’m sure you know, many organizations, but it’s, it’s also something which is kind of fascinating. I think one things that’s kind of funny with this. I know that like, this is like, Knowing this pod, you’re kind of like asking me a bunch of questions, but with your background in code review, the thing that I kind of noticed, and I’m wondering if there’s any research around this is that sometimes there’s this issue of like, whether people will really be forthright about their criticism of a piece of code. And if they’re not, do we basically just sort of like let quality deteriorate because nobody really wants to step up and say, there might be an issue here, you know, is that a thing which happens in code review that you’re.
Michaela:: [00:32:34] This is definitely something that happens and it happens for various reason, right? It could happen for example, because people know that even if they are criticizing it. The team and the organization, how it’s structured and how, you know, incentives work and all of that. Right. So there’s a lot of that behind the theme thing. It’s too late. Right? So most of the time the criticism that’s not sad is because it’s too late. So even if I would say it right now, we are not going to, you know, change it. We are too far in it. Right. So this is, this is one, one part where this happens quite a bit and it’s really sad. And you know, this is also a planning issue, right? It’s the ticket to big when are we involving people to give feedback? And so, you know, people have worked like a month. On something. And then you’re, it goes higher up and people say, well, this is from an actual perspective. It’s horrible, but it cannot even say it anymore. Right. They cannot change you’re too far in. And then obviously there are also hierarchy issues, right? So is a, is somebody allowed to say something? Is it even hurt when you’re saying something? . People learn if the, Code review feedback is not perceived or not received and not changed people that also learned that this doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t make sense. So this is definitely something that happens. There’s also something called, you know the priming bias. So if you see that other people already looked through the code you’re also primed for their answers. So the best thing would be that people are looking through the code without looking how others responded and say, well, it looks good to me, or, you know,
Michael Feathers:[00:34:05] Yeah. And we’re talking to somebody, an organization, a very big software development organization, and they were saying, we know we hire great engineers. But the one thing that we kind of noticed is that essentially we can see through the metrics that the code quality is deteriorating, but nobody on the team knows because they’re just so used to looking at the same code all the time. They just kind of understand what’s going on with things. So the newcomer. Would be completely, you know, I’m surprised by so one things I kind of wonder about all the time. It’s like, can we basically get new people on the team, people visiting that we’ll be able to basically say, well, you know, you’re saying this is great, but I don’t understand it. And then sometimes I might be like a, like a jolt to go and say, it’s like, wow. You know, it’s like, are we building a silo of understanding here that basically is disconnected from understanding of the world. Might be a possibility with that too, you know, to go and sort of like try to mix things up a bit to the point where the teams don’t become stale in their understanding.
Michaela:: [00:34:57] Then, for example, culture feedback, right? So I’m working also a lot of very often with people or teams on how to give feedback so that others even can, you know, receive it. And very often there is like, Oh, but in our team, we understand when we are talking very harshly with each other or whatnot, right. But this is also a sort of blindness, which I think is very similar to the blindness for your code that you say, well, if you have to be very intimate with your team and know that this is actually not a harsh comment, but it’s a joke for you. Then first of all, it’s not coming to others. It’s not something that you want to leave on because in two years, your team is not a team anymore than it is today. Right? So if somebody looks at this code comment they will not understand. Right. And it’s also, as you said, it’s something that you’re building up where. It’s not conforming to what we were expecting outside. Right. So it’s really something that’s very, it’s a very narrow, very blind view on your system. Right.
Michael Feathers:[00:35:49] Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s, yeah. There’s a lot of really interesting dynamics around all this stuff. I find it really fascinating. It’s funny. Conway’s law, you know, we’re Conway’s laws, you know, saying that the code structure is gonna end up going in, mirroring the structure of the teams to kind of like, you know, look at that at a very deep level and go and say the same thing is true with quality. If the coast starts to be kind of messed up at probably in the case, there’s communication problems within the team, in terms of nobody’s able to go with, stand up and say, there’s something wrong here. Maybe, you know, I mean, it seems like that kind of effect can occur as well.
Michaela:: [00:36:25] Lot of different issues behind why quality deteriorates. Right. So what I also often see you and I mean, It really breaks my heart is that if people want to, but they’re just really, they can’t or they feel that they can’t. Right. And this is very often from an organizational perspective. So one question that I had for you is when you were coming in, I think there’s a lot of buy-in from a path, right? So there’s a lot of top down. Understanding suddenly, Oh, this is important. Whereby teams are dealing with this bottom up, you know approach really have to see, well, I see this is a problem. We feel this is a problem. We don’t have enough time to do it. You know, there’s a lot of deadlines and so on and they would have to communicate up to which I often feel. This is really, really hard. And if you don’t have commitment, this is also what developers say, right. If I don’t have to commitment, I just can’t fix it. It doesn’t matter if I find it important or not.
Michael Feathers:[00:37:19] The advice that might be kind of seen as like problematic in a way. Right. But the thing is, I think sometimes with a good team, If you can find other people on the team that care about co quality issues, the way that you do just form a little bit conspiracy with them. It’s kind of like, you’re not going to ask for permission. You’re just going to make things better silently and just not really talk about it with the rest of the team until they start to notice just like through osmosis, that this is a better way of doing things, right. One of the worst things you can do as a developer is try to lecture your other developers on the team. Right? Nobody likes that. Right. And you know, if you have. Some respect already that you’re able to go in sort of like say, you know, you should really do things this way and it works. You know, communication wise. That’s great. But if you don’t have that, you know, it just doesn’t go all that far. But I think, you know, the, the main thing is the programming can be very fun and cleaning things up can be very fun also. Right. And if, you know, you can develop that kind of culture internally within the team. That’s great. And worked with a team a long time ago that really had this interesting thing. They did great work, but part of it was also a feeling that every other team in the organization was a bunch of idiots. In a way. So it’s kind of like this thing of going and saying, like us versus them and it formed like this cohesive group with them. The thing is they were all smart enough to go and recognize that, you know, that was like not the truth. It was just like this little story they told themselves to basically sort of like say. Yeah. Yeah, we’re doing this great thing. And it’s like, who cares if nobody else really uses it? You know, that way that we intended, it’s like, it’s still okay. I think we can basically play those emotional games a little bit to sort of like not hurt anybody, but also kind of bolster ourselves up as we try to do things. It’s funny, cause I’ve mentioned this a couple of times in interviews and stuff that I really feel that I missed an opportunity with the legacy code book to basically give it a positive frame because even though it can be kind of treacherous to go and deal with legacy code, it can also be like, And adventure, if you basically sort of frame it that way, you know, it can kind of let go and say, look, you know, you’re kind of like going through this crazy jungle and you’re learning things and you’re picking things up and making things better as you go. And that can be a decent way of going and motivating yourself and people around you to go and do some cool things.
Michaela:: [00:39:26] I think that a lot of engineers actually like cleaning up, right. It’s like, If you have like a kitchen sink and it’s, it’s dirty and then you swipe over it and it’s nice. Right? And so I think a lot people also recognize that and it’s, it’s a hard problem, right? It’s on one hand they had problem. There’s a lot of architecture thinking about it. So sometimes maybe people don’t even have the possibility to be involved in such. Higher decisions or impactful decisions. And suddenly with refactoring, all those decisions are actually at your fingertips that you can actually change something and make it better. And, and, you know, it’s in the small, but it can have a lot of ripple effects and all of that. Right. So to think about that, I think can be very challenging and.
Michael Feathers:[00:40:07] Too, when people are talking about what good design is, it’s kind of like, you know, if you give anybody a blank piece of paper and tell them to design something, they can usually do something really cool. But the real skill in design is working with stuff that’s already there, right? Because the number of constraints that you have basically go into sort of like help you exercise your design skill in a way, because you have to go and sort of like work around them and work with them. At least to deeper design insight, working with things where you have, where your environment is a bit more constrained than than you might hope it to be.
Michaela:: [00:40:36] Yeah. So there were a couple of questions on Twitter as well that I want to be even a little bit. So I was thinking about best practices again. So people were thinking about how can we, you know, show best practices. I asked you that at the beginning as well about best practices. And we talked a little bit about transparency and in my recent discussions, I’m discussing a lot with engineers right now. We also talked about transparency and how cool it would actually be. Okay. In an organization or outside of an organization to see, you know, what are people doing and then also seeing the impact, right? So you can pick and choose. And there is also, this is also something that we are lacking a little bit different transparency of best practices. Well, even if practices, right, it doesn’t have to be the best practice, but the practice. How, how is that team doing? How is this team to doing and similar to what you said too, when I’m working with larger organization, we also see that all there’s this division and that division and the third division. And then they think that this division is actually doing the best. Right. And so they’re really proud of their Practices and the other are doing like really bad work. And suddenly you see that people are working and there are constraints. Right? So because one is like the driver division. Yeah. Which is a very different kind of a beach. And if you’re working on the website side of things right. Where you can update things much easier, but it would be really cool to see a little bit. How are people working and H how could you do that in an organization? Is there something that you learned. Where organizations surface that and show what are good practices that other teams should adopt.
Michael Feathers:[00:42:07] Yeah. Typically with organizations that worked with them, I had them kind of like moving too. Like this show and tell mode where like, you know, once every couple of weeks or something like that, people from different groups will present what they’ve done and kind of like just make that available for people to go and see, you know, where the other possibilities are, you know? And it’s, it really does. You know, a lot of it does come down to what you were saying earlier is that some practices might be better in certain types of development than others. But the thing is, you know, you get to raise the consciousness of those things and it’s. Creating forums for those particular things. And the cool thing with that, as you get developers real used to going and doing a little bit more, like say public speaking, even though it’s internally within the company to go and describe, you know, the various things that they happen to be working on and doing. Right. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know that there’s anything that’s really like, you know, it’s just doing that. Sorry.
Michaela:: [00:42:54] Yeah, communication, right? Brown bags, for example, that you
Michael Feathers:[00:42:57] Yeah, I think, you know, nothing. I would go and add to that too. Is that even though transparency like that as a good, I think it’s one of those things where it has to be discretionary rather than we’re completely transparent all the time. Right. Within an organization. I think one things that’s kind of cool is that when you have. Different groups of people within an organization working on different things, they can incubate something and basically not worry about somebody going in saying, well, maybe that’s not a good idea. It’s like, no, we’re going to try this for a while. And we’re going to go and see what works with that. Then basically go and give you results. Once we feel more comfortable with that. And then you get like the enhanced. You get enhanced psychological safety within that cloister in a way because you don’t, you know, everybody’s kind of got the buy-in and the relationship with each other. And that’s just a natural part of being human, right. To be able to come and sort of like, you know, grow things in a safe environment and then present them out into the world a little bit. But you know, a lot of this really comes down to leadership really within your organization. Can you basically go and sort of like, make it. You know okay. For things to be, not to be okay. Not be okay sometimes. Right. And just sort of like, make people feel safe to go and communicate back and forth, then, you know, do the things they need to do. So, yeah. Culture again, you know, I think I said.
Michaela:: [00:44:07] That’s true. Yeah. I, this really resonates a lot with me. So maybe the last question that I want to ask you, and it’s a little bit connected to the Twitter. Things is about testing. So I made a study, actually. I think it’s. I dunno how many years ago? A couple of years, eight years, 10 years, 10 years time flies. And I was looking at unit tests versus integration tests and system tests. And at that time, people were all over unit tests, like unit tests, you know, is, is the bullet that brings you joy and happiness. And I, I feel that this shifted a lot over the last year. So right now people are more into integration, testing, more into systems testing. What’s your thought about that? And especially in connection with legacy code, are we still because legacy costs, I think a lot of things were still unit tests, right? So we are connecting, having unit tests and having tests in general around the system to make changes. Has that shifted as well? What do you think about system tests?
Michael Feathers:[00:45:00] Yeah, I think, I think it’s shifted a lot with service orientation, right? When we’re doing like microservices and stuff along those lines, the there’s like a, you know, We talked about like code being alive, right? There’s this great talk from Alan Kay at oops, look basically in the 1990s where he basically goes and draws a parallel between code and biology. And he talks about, you know, his original conception of object orientation being kind of like cells communicating with each other through messages, by chemical messages. And it’s kind of funny because when you send messages from one cell to another via chemicals, it’s asynchronous and it made me kind of realize it’s kind of like, you know, Well, we wanted Ohio to be Israeli. What services are in a way it’s like you can send a synchronous messages notifications across these services and they can be really very well decoupled from each other. Right. So basically going and testing things at a service level is a very decent thing to be able to do. The unit testing thing was really very proud, met pragmatic. When it comes down to, if you’re making a change to a particular piece of code, you want to be able to go and get close to it. And if you can basically go and write tests, like at the class level around it, then you’re in a situation where you can go and get immediate feedback about what you’re happened to be doing. And so it’s like this way of going and sort of like building. You know, building like this assurance as you basically go and make changes that you really are doing the right thing. So unit, it seems like units in object orientation tend to align around classes or aggregates of classes. And so I tend to see those as being a unit in a way and that wrong. And it’s really all about going and making it possible to go and get that feedback and, and build, you know A knowledge-based through tests that basically can go and find out very quickly by running whether things are working or not. One of the things I’ve been kind of throwing around is as a frame recently as that essentially test determined where your unit in a way that if you can basically go and get an area of code. And it’s easy to go and basically test it. Then that’s a decent, decent definition of unit as you can ever get. And for you, a unit might be a service where it might be a class, but it’s the point at which the testing comes to difficult that you basically know that you’ve got a modularity boundary, that isn’t all that great. And it’s just, you know, like a way of going and looking at things in that realm. So yeah, I don’t, I don’t really, I think as long as people go and understand that tests and modularity kind of. Work together in a very interesting way. It doesn’t matter to me whether you call it unit tests or systems tests the test will give you feedback about your modularity and that’s a cool thing to know.
Michaela:: [00:47:26] Yeah. Yeah. Like the, like the frame so well, Michael I think we are at the end of this show, I’m really happy that I could pick your brains for so long. Is there something that you wanted to let my listeners know before we are ending? And I will definitely link a couple of things down there in the show notes, but is there something that you, you know, that you’ll want to end the show with?
Michael Feathers: [00:47:48] Yeah, I guess just basically going in saying that we’re all part of one, we are part of the system as humans working in software development, and we need to basically take the systems that we work on seriously. And, you know, I think that seriousness for us means kind of like looking at them as entities that have their own qualities and we can make them better. You know, the thing about this, that. I think it’s kind of fascinating is that if we are going from job to job and place to place, and these systems remain behind, you know, it’s good for us to go and actually exercise enough care that we leave the place, leave the system better for the next people, because you know, that’s just what empathy is all about.
Michaela:: [00:48:26] So you show your empathy through your code, right? In the quality that you leave for the people that have to deal with it.
Michael Feathers:[00:48:34] like a couple of years ago. It’s like code is the way you treat your coworkers. Right. And it’s kind of like, it’s true. You’re not really us. So
Michaela:: [00:48:41] Yeah. Yeah. I like that end note. Thank you so much. Um, was a very inspiring talk. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Michael Feathers:[00:48:48] Excellent. Thanks.
Michaela:: [00:48:49] Okay. Bye.https://grain.co/highlight/lUGaWr1iPs39D4HeOqszHXnglk9i9tIRzcy6wk52